04 Feb 2013, Posted by yohami in conversations,game, 9 Comments.
Apologize
The stereotype she talks about is actually an apex fallacy: high status men, or in the eyes of women, “real men” apologize less, or dont apologize at all, in contrast to the majority of men who apologize all the time, specially to women.
The rest of the video is bogus because it’s based on “self reported”, or in other words, biased data.
Anyway, Carlotta had this question at Vox’s post about dominance and submission.
“Could this be applied to male/female relationships?
For instance, someone married to a Sigma, Alpha or high Beta gets in a fight with them. He will not apologize, for nothing. Or, she is wrong and he simply will not give in until she apologizes, publically, repeatedly.
I am just wondering if for those who are just understanding all this, maybe this has applications in marriage as well.
I can tell you, I have seen gammas’ fight with their wives and everyone is disgusted. You kind of get the feeling that even the wife wishes he would stand the heck up to her.”
Alpha can apologize if he’s wrong. But wont apologize as a way to avoid conflict or release the tension.
Beta’s strategy is to apologize always even if he doesn’t know what’s going on. He can’t handle pressure or tension, so he gives in first. Actually “giving in” is what he brings to the table.
Alpha accepts apologies when it’s due, and accepts submission always. The offending party doesn’t need to know what they did wrong as long as they concede the lead and get out of the way.
In more detail:
“Could this be applied to male/female relationships? For instance, someone married to a Sigma, Alpha or high Beta gets in a fight with them. He will not apologize, for nothing.”
What usually happens is that the woman is trying to dominate the husband, and wants him to apologize as a way to get him to concede power. It’s not that the Alpha wont apologize for nothing, it’s that he won’t apologize as long as he thinks he did nothing wrong, and / or as long apologizing means submission.
And then you have narcissists, of both genders and all over the spectrum, who truly think they did nothing wrong and will only apologize when they are already on their knees and it’s too late, and not because they think they did anything wrong but because they see that apologizing is the only way to keep their narcissist supply, eg, salvage the relationship so they can keep on the abuse… but that’s a separate subject.
“Or, she is wrong and he simply will not give in until she apologizes, publically, repeatedly.”
This sounds more like humiliation. See. A real alpha… not just a dude who’s seating on the throne but doesn’t incarnate the archetype… a “real” alpha is above you but is leading the way and provisioning so you can follow his same steps – leading by example. Will kick your ass and call you out when you do wrong. And demand submissiveness when you attempt to put him down. But it’s not about humiliation. It’s not about hurting you. It’s the same mold as when you have kids and they misbehave. You don’t correct them and set strict rules and call them out because you want to destroy them, but because it’s your responsibility to do so.
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9 Comments
February 4, 2013 8:47 am
Michael Maier
Did this wench actually say anything in that video? I know I’m tired but there doesn’t seem to be a “there” there.
February 4, 2013 10:03 am
yohami
she says that male’s have higher threshold for aggression, so men do stuff that they dont think merit apologies, therefore they say “Im sorry” less.
she also says women are more empathetic and that makes them say Im sorry more.
February 4, 2013 1:31 pm
Vicomte @Twitter Name
She basically says women are dramatic and men aren’t.
I paid more attention to the comically high arm of the couch.
February 4, 2013 4:07 pm
Ian Ironwood @Twitter Name
What she also doesn’t say is how women often use apologies as a tool of social maneuvering, not necessarily (and for some women, never) as a means of genuine contrition. Women use a multi-track communication system, in which context and subtext are just as valid, if not moreso, than the objective content of the message. So “I’m sorry” from a woman can mean three different things at the same time, some of them even contradictory, and in the world of the Female Social Matrix that’s a perfectly acceptable and comprehensible confusion of communication. It’s not that they’re being intentionally deceitful, as some in the Manosphere contend, it’s just that the female mode of communication is more sophisticated than the male mode. Women aren’t being evil, they’re being women, and attempting to judge them by male communication standards is a mistake.
Men, by contrast, see false apology as a sign of submission, and a woman’s insistence on an apology for an imagined slight is often considered a shit-test — and rightfully so. While the Alpha will not apologize if he is not wrong, he will also not entertain petulant behavior from his wife. But a good Wolf Alpha, High Beta or Sigma will be able to separate the issue of who was right/wrong from a woman’s emotional reaction to the argument and deal with each aspect differently. Hence:
“I understand how upset you are, and clearly this is an important issue to you. I am genuinely sorry if my passion and zeal on this subject has wounded your feelings — I assure you, it’s not a personal slight on you or your perspectives and experience. Clearly, you are an intelligent and well-educated woman, or I never would have married you. And I honestly didn’t mean to hurt your feelings.
“But I assure you, Sweetie, that no matter what the nice man at the garage said, there is no such thing as “horn fluid” and charging you $39.95 for changing it is, indeed, an attempt to take advantage of you. Now, I’m not mad at you — you didn’t know. I’m mad at him, and I’ll deal with that myself. What I’d like you to take away from this is that if, in the future, you see a questionable item on the bill that you feel free to challenge it, and even call me and ask my opinion if you’d like. And in the meantime, if you don’t mind, I’ll take the car in next time. No, it’s not that you are incapable — but that sort of thing is just more in my wheelhouse than yours. I mean, if it was a dry-cleaning issue, I’d let you take point, but . . .”
The key, of course, is to parse out the tangled web of communication and understand what all the various parts actually mean — and that’s not an easy thing for a man to do. It is a learnable skill, however. It takes patience, persistence, and careful attention to detail, but those are the sorts of things at which Alphas, High Betas and Sigmas excel.
All that being said, the ability to deliver a sincere and heartfelt apology when you are genuinely wrong about something is also an Alpha skill. Done well and properly, it displays a graciousness and magnanimity that can inspire and impress. And it rarely bothers a true Alpha – because if he’s actually wrong, he genuinely wants to know it and correct it.
Excellent post.
February 4, 2013 11:03 pm
M3 @Twitter Name
I wanted to say everything that Ian said, but he said it better than i could imagine having said it so im glad he said it and i didn’t.
That being said, i approve his message.
And yours. Great post!
I remember how easy i was to apologize for everything, even things that weren’t my fault, just to avoid conflict. Now, i only apologize when i know i screwed up, and even then, it’s measured.. not grovelling for forgiveness.
February 5, 2013 12:29 am
yohami
I also cosign what Ian said
February 8, 2013 12:23 pm
Dannyfrom504 @Twitter Name
I’m posting about this tomorrow
If I’m wrong, I’ll apologize, but just ONCE. I’ll let her make her point, offer my side. But I will NEVER keep apologizing.
Alphas apologize only if it’s righteous, betas apologize all day. Not I said Dan.
February 16, 2013 8:07 am
Sid @Twitter Name
I have grown up apologizing probably multiple times a day without thinking anything of it.
Since red pill, I have attempted to curb this behaviour, however for someone for whom apologizing is the norm, it takes constant effort to avoid it.
Learning form Roissy: ‘You have 3 apologies for the life of your relationship’, I think I have to come back strong and keep my apologies very very limited.
Ian speaks of the genuine, true, ultimate alpha male. The kind that is not only admired by the chick in the club or party but by all of his peers.
Thanks for the post.
Yohami, could you give your comment on extremely limiting the amount of ‘sorry’s’ you give to a girl you are interested in, during and after the ‘courtship’ period?
February 18 2013 22:00 pm
yohami
start by never saying sorry. remove apologies from your vocabulary. if under pressure say you understand their concern. do this as a hard rule for a while, it will show you how much you use apologies as a way to grease in your way, which is an habit that you should quit. when you have a strong grasp on this, then you can start apologizing again, but when something really deserves an apology.
say, I rarely say "Im sorry" if I bump someone on the street. I say "hey watch where you walk!" or I laugh and wink. there are many ways to grease your way in. use apologies only when they are really due.
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