17 May 2012, Posted by yohami in conversations,inner game, 46 Comments.
Why do we have to go through all this?
Ted left this concern at Dogsquat´s
I think I have the concept of game well covered) how game works. It is using specific actions to trigger specific reactions from a woman. In a way, I see it as a social way of making a person’s leg twitch by hitting the kneecap with a rubber mallet. It is a reaction to a trigger. I don’t have any issue with understanding that. My issue is, why do we have to go through all this?
We are intelligent creatures, totally and utterly capable of overriding our most basic and strongest biological urges, yet instead of simply standing up and saying “this is stupid. lets fix it” we keep finding ways to bump woman with that rubber mallet.
You were in the military, so you have seen this plenty of times. If we could not override our nature, no human alive would run into a burning building to save a stranger. No human would go to war for their country. The fact that people can and have sacrificed themselves for another person, or even the “greater good”, proves beyond all doubt that there really is no need for “game” if we would simply stop rutting in our “nature” and rose above to become something better. THAT is the reason I keep looking for the why of it all. Not because I don’t understand how it works, but because I simply cannot fathom why we all collectively don’t just wise up and change the rules. And this is also why I tend to feel that “people” suck.
Collectively we will gravitate toward the lowest common denominator even though we have the capacity to be much more. Unless pushed, most people simply don’t care to improve. Yes, I get that the sky is blue and water is wet. But the sky and water do not have self awareness and intelligence to become something else. To simply state that something just “is” when it comes to female sexuality is completely removing intelligence and will from the equation.
———————-
OK, let’s break it down.
[Game] is using specific actions to trigger specific reactions from a woman.
No. Social interaction is what you do to trigger specific reactions from people. Really think, sit and process that one. From the moment you open your mouth, greet people, say hi, hello, thanks, all your demeanor, all your public presence an interactions, are, exclusively, actions that trigger specific reactions on people.
If you’re kind to other people you expect kindness back. If you are abusive to other people, you expect them to respond as victims do. If you tell jokes, you expect laughs. If you are generous, you expect gratitude. Whenever you dont get what you EXPECT, you’re going to feel hurt. You’re going to feel that how the world treats you doesnt match what your inputting. Simply put, your ability to get disoriented and hurt exposes your selfish, self centered, manipulative, inner bitch.
Now, this is less manipulative if what you do and what you project is “really” what you feel and how you are, and you’re not doing it “because” you expect any specific return. But go ahead, and examine if you’re doing what you’re doing because that “is you”, or because you expect something in return. How to measure that? check the pain meter. The more hurt you are, the more you’re doing whatever you’re doing to get something in return.
So, no, game is not using specific actions to get specific reactions. Action / Reaction is just socialization.
Game is a map telling you which actions trigger which reactions and why. And you can use that to overwrite the non-functioning one.
My issue is, why do we have to go through all this?
We are intelligent creatures, totally and utterly capable of overriding our most basic and strongest biological urges
No we’re not.
We’re intelligent. Cough. Yes. But intelligence is only needed when there’s pain, and the use of intelligence requires a deliberate, problem solving approach – it requires acknowledge of pain AND having the responsibility to go find and fix the issue. So you’re only going to use your intelligence when you cant ignore/placate the pain AND you cant use someone else to figure it out. That’s just how it is. It’s called conservation of energy.
And then, intelligence is only at the service of your basic and strong biological urges. Intelligence only works when you’re in pain, remember? you cant override your pain with intelligence. Your pain is the fuel. You will think and problem solve and reach agreements and do whatever you can to survive. Surviving is not a rational drive. Actually, I´ll wait here while you look for a single example of any human being overriding their most basic and strongest biological urges.
We dont want intelligence. Dude. You dont want the intelligence to, say, handle x1000 the problems you can handle now. You dont want the intelligence to figure out every problem in the world and take on them. What you want is pleasure, comfort, fitness, and control. You need intelligence to handle the stuff that is preventing you from reaching that state, you need intelligence to find your way through, but you’re going to use your intelligence to make yourself happy, or make yourself comfortable in whatever situation you’re in and survive, and not the other way around. Intelligence is a tool. Once you reach your destiny, you’re going to relax and turn it off. As you should.
If we could not override our nature, no human alive would run into a burning building to save a stranger. No human would go to war for their country.
Why is it then that women dont go into the burning building to save male strangers, but men do?
Check Animal Planet. Animals do fight, go to war, protect their women and children, eggs, the colmena, animals live in war and put themselves second when needed, in order for their tribe to survive. Bottom line, this isnt a human, rational construct. Wars and society and firefighters and heroes are part of our animal imprint.
Actually, try to talk rationally to a soldier into NOT going into war. And you’ll get an emotional, not rational, response.
if we would simply stop rutting in our “nature” and rose above to become something better.
But this hits the nail.
Stop rutting our nature and become something better. On one hand, you despise your nature, you’re drowning in shame and self rejection, and cant find your way to accept yourself and other people, you find yourself as an outcast, and see our base nature as defectful. On the other hand, you think you can do “better”. Say, nature rigged this thing, but Ted has a better idea, and the idea is to add more intelligence (more problem solving) to the mix. So you’re in pain right? you’re in trouble. Who do you think it’s going to dictate what that “better” is? who do you think is going to lay the rules down so your intelligence can figure out a “better” human being? because all I can see is your pain, your very defectul, unfit and rejected biological nature…. full of pain… your inner manipulative bitchy beautiful monster, unwilling to use your own intelligence to solve the problem you’re in for yourself.
In other words, you want all of us, you want the world to change and overwrite the basic nature and use their intelligence to form bridges, because your own body is in pain, and you are unwilling to use your own intelligence to figure it out.
You want to conserve your energy and waste ours.
So go fuck yourself. And I love you, my friend, but fuck yourself already. Grow the fuck up.
THAT is the reason I keep looking for the why of it all.
I hope I provided.
Not because I don’t understand how it works, but because I simply cannot fathom why we all collectively don’t just wise up and change the rules. And this is also why I tend to feel that “people” suck.
People suck. I suck. You suck. We’re are horrible. But we’re cool and beautiful too. Carry your own mess and use your own intelligence – dive into your own pain and own your own hurts, stop being lazy now and use your own energy to figure this out, instead of asking everyone else and ringing the false high-road bell. Save laziness for the future. Procastinate laziness, save that for when you’ve made it. For when you’re good.
Own your own mess. And you´ll see it.
Collectively we will gravitate toward the lowest common denominator even though we have the capacity to be much more. Unless pushed, most people simply don’t care to improve.
You’ve got it. We tend to conservate energy. Unless there’s trouble, pain, conflict, why change? we can be “so much more” really translates to “we can be different”. But if when there’s no trouble, pain or conflict… what’s the point on being different? you hold on to that state. As you should.
Converting capacity / potential into factual, real goods takes work. Now ask yourself how much work do you want to put into reaching all your capacity and potential, while holding to the idea that this is just a “different” you, not necessarily “better”, because “better” is mostly defined by the external conditions. So how much work?
If you’re sane, the response is as much work as needed, but as little as possible.
For a lot of people whatever they are doing simply works. They manage to get to the end of the week and to the end of the month. That’s all it takes to hold on.
Yes, I get that the sky is blue and water is wet. But the sky and water do not have self awareness and intelligence to become something else. To simply state that something just “is” when it comes to female sexuality is completely removing intelligence and will from the equation.
You dont become something else because you’re aware. You become something else when you dont have other choice. Let’s say the sky and water had self awareness. What would you expect them to become? what’s wrong with the sky and water to begin with? what’s going to happen? sky + water 3.0 with a usb port? what for?
How is intelligence going to change masculine and feminine sexuality, when it’s not broken? if anything, intelligence is going to break it to fit your previously broken stuff, like feminism and some other religions have.
Stop putting this stuff outside.
What you’re doing is complaining that whatever you’re doing doesnt work, doesnt give you what you expected to receive in exchange of your behavior / manipulation, and you want other people to use their intelligence, or if they dont, at least blame your pain on them for not doing it, so you dont have to own your own pain, dont have to use your own intelligence, and dont have to change and become a different version of you.
You’re like a crying baby, except you’re in age to walking to the kitchen, open the fridge, and feed yourself.
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46 Comments
May 17, 2012 9:57 pm
Sassy6519 @Twitter Name
Amen!
May 17, 2012 10:40 pm
Ted D
Good post. However I disagree with much of it.
For the record I’m not at all unhappy at this point in my life. Work is lame but steady despite a shitty economy. My home life is consistent and rewarding, and my relationship with my SO is as good as it has been since day one. I am indeed taking responsibility for my shit and getting it in order. But none of that has anything to do with manipulating people to get what I want.
I don’t know about others, but I assuredly do not interact with my family and friends in a particular way to get a response. When I talk to my SO, I am being honest and open about my intentions. The same for my friends and family. Sure, in my work life I do exactly what you described, but not because I want to get a specific reaction. It is because if I was truly myself and spoke my mind they would be hurt and angry with me. Why? Because I say it like it is and don’t concern myself with how that makes them feel. My family and friends know this about me, and although it has caused hurt feelings and regiments they have all come to value my candid approach. So I completely reject the notion that everyone intentionally manipulates each other. Perhaps that’s what everyone else does, which adds more credibility to my stance that people suck.
So to be clear, I may be crying, but it isn’t over MY personal situation. I am happy and content in my own little bubble of life. What I’m pissed about is that my bubble of life has to float around in the dirty water everyone else is creating. I don’t know you, but there is a fair chance that I would find you to be a great person IF we got to know each other. But, we won’t, and that puts you in the “people” category to me. This means that I assume you do indeed suck until you prove otherwise. Is that fair? Hell no! But no where is it written that I have to be fair to anyone, and it is only because I decide to BE fair that I ever am.
Yes I realize that generally people are lazy shits. I am a lazy shit. But I can see the advantages of getting off my ass and working for something better, and it frustrates me that most people really are satisfied just floating around in ther own bubble of life while someone is pissing in the pool. I truly believe that we can be more than our biology, but it will not happen if pain is our only motivation. And honestly, what does that say about a person that they will only put forth effort when they are suffering? You seem to think I have some bad thinking, but to me believing the only way to enact change is through pain and suffering just seems very barbaric. And sad.
Bottom line for me is this: I’m glad I found the ‘sphere and learned about the red pill. Information is always good to have, and I can and will continue to use that knowledge to improve. However, I refuse to resort to parlor tricks and social manipulation to get what I want/need. To do that would be to forsake my sense of morality and justice, and to be honest I would rather die alone than sell my soul to the devil. To me there are more important things in life than happiness. I certainly want to be happy, but not if the cost is giving up on being moral and decent. And I’ve finally come to the conclusion that if a woman is not happy with me as I like myself to be, she isn’t right for me. If I must “game” her using dread and trickery, then I’m better off without her. Because It will bring me down, and no person is worth that. What is important is that I like myself as I am. If not, I should change it. But changing who I am for a woman is not going to succeed, and in the end I will be alone and miserable. At least now if I end up alone, I will still like myself.
May 17, 2012 11:48 pm
yohami
Ted,
“However, I refuse to resort to parlor tricks and social manipulation to get what I want/need.”
Like I said, you already are. You learned your parlor tricks and social manipulation early on, what you are refusing to, is change. You dont want to drop your tricks and manipulations in order to get new ones that seem counter intuitive / dont fit your older programming.
Now to manipulation: like I said, this is less manipulative when you’re honest, when how you behave is in sync with what you really think and feel. That makes the manipulation less evil, but it doesnt make it any less manipulative.
You like yourself like who you are because something called ego. The glue that holds us together. Not because there’s any inherent value on who you are nor how you are. You just like yourself because that’s all you have. Same for me and everyone else.
Game was designed as a toolbox of tricks. So guys could use tricks and get results without changing who they were. But. The mere fact that the tricks work expose that the “you” molded to lies, that the tricks already in the toolbox were developed under false premises. So all you can do is accept reality, accept the water is wet etc. And figure who you have to be and which skills you need to develop, what you will have to change into, in order to be both honest and effective. So you can do what works, while still being you.
May 18, 2012 1:35 am
yohami
Ted, btw, I dont think you have a bad thinking. But since this red pill issue is taking months of resistance and seems to be your main point of concern, I figure you’re facing some heavy emotional resistance to it.
And, pain is not the only drive. The other is wish, desire, want… pleasure. But pleasure and pain are the same thing. It depends on whether you obtain what you want or not. For people to change out of their comfort zone, they need either a pain, something that disturbs it to its core, or, a burning desire to be something else. When you compare the burning desire and the pain, they are pretty much the same thing, except one comes from the outside, and the other is generated inside.
If you had the inside one you wouldnt be resisting this. You’re conflicting against the reality messing up with your comfort zone. So pain it is.
May 18, 2012 2:42 am
AneroidOcean @Twitter Name
Ted, I wonder why you have such a problem with what women desire? You question what they desire, as if it’s unfair for the majority of them to desire the same thing, when they can’t have the same thing.
This is a bit of a strawman because you’re operating under the assumption that people should want different things if they all can’t have the same thing. This is just reality (that people all want similar things and that some of those things they can’t all get).
May 18, 2012 2:43 am
Why are you afraid of the red pill? « aneroidocean
[...] http://yohami.com/blog/2012/05/17/why-do-we-have-to-go-through-all-this/ [...]
May 18, 2012 7:19 pm
Californio @Twitter Name
Crying about how people should be “better” is like demeaning your potential customers because they do not buy your product. Observe, digest objective information and adjust your approach – unless you are committed to losing. And isn’t that a commitment to making yourself “better”? Making self-congratulatory statements about your inherent superiority is not a sign of intellegence, more likely self-delusion – and you should be better that THAT.
May 18, 2012 9:00 pm
deti
I agree with Ted that we should not have to manipulate to get what we want. I also agree with Ted that if a woman does not want me the way I am, then perhaps we’re not right for each other.
But “should” has nothing to do with it.
Where Ted is getting stuck is that he is having a hard time accepting the world as it is.
I’ll use myself as an example.
I’ve been married almost 16 years. I learned game in the past year. I have had to accept my wife as she is, not as I want her to be.
I have had to come to some hard realizations.
How many of us in marriages or LTRs know that she has been faithful and has not cheated? She says she hasn’t. But how do I KNOW that? In the end, all I’m really left with is her word, and her character. That’s really it.
I don’t really know if she has been faithful.
She could leave me at any time, take the kids, and get her cash and prizes.
She can decide one day she simply does not want to be with me anymore.
She can cheat on me, and unless I am watching very carefully or catch her, I might never know.
So I have come to this, difficult as it may be:
1. Game is the answer. I make myself attractive to the world at large. If others see my attractiveness, Mrs. deti will also see it, or if she does not, she ignores it at her peril.
2. I am prepared to walk away from her if I have to.
3. I stand firm on what I want and need. My needs come first. I serve her needs sometimes. I want and expect her to serve my needs at least equally, if not more.
4. I will use dread if I have to. I will make known that I can and will leave if I have to. I can and will begin to withdraw investment and commitment if necessary.
I do not like this. I wish it were not like this. I wish I did not have to take this approach. I am simply making sure my needs are met. And in the process I am giving her what she wants.
May 25 2012 16:38 pm
Ted D
Deti - I don't disagree with anything you said above, but although I am indeed working on being more attractive and getting my needs met first and foremost, I am also going to try something else that I hope will improve things greatly.
I'm going to do my best to teach my SO about herself.
I honestly don't see how this can work if my mate remains completely clueless. Athol's wife of course is fully on board with his efforts, which means she knows all about "female nature" as presented in the 'sphere, and not only did she not have a mental breakdown, she seems to be MORE willing to support his efforts. Of the several married folks I've talked to online, it seems to me that in many cases both partners know the whole story, and it seems to actually add a bit of stability to the relationship. Knowing that my SO understands why she might get a tingle for some random guy doesn't seem like a bad thing. In fact, how can we as men ever expect women to control their urges (the way men have been expected to do for years) if they don't even know WHY they have them?
I haven't figured out exactly how I'm going to approach this, and to be honest I'm not ready anyway. I want to get myself into better shape and closer to my goals before I try this. Plus, since we are both divorced with children living with us, our summer vacation will be coming soon. And by that I mean, WE get one because our children spend the summers with their other parent. (my son goes to Ohio to stay with his mother, and my SO's kids go to their dad). I think I may just leave Athol's book laying out and see if she picks it up.
Or I may come up with something completely different. But I can't see this working long term if she remains completely clueless about all this.
May 19, 2012 12:33 am
yohami
I hate the word manipulation, specially in the context of emotional manipulation.
So I agree with Deti, and let’s add this:
You can and should be frontal, honest, direct, clear. However these are not your only cards. On top of honesty and clearness you can tease, flirt, roleplay, and do humor. You can be sincere, to yourself, and express yourself from there. This, however, doesnt change the rules of the game.
Women are attracted to what they are attracted to, and they respond to what they respond. They are not attracted to honesty nor clearness but to dominance and asertiveness. So if all you have is a sincere apology and an honest insecurity, you’re not cutting it. Fix and resolve your inner stuff so you can be sincere while holding up your value.
Taking that aside, everything is manipulation. Cause and effect. You do stuff because you want stuff from other people. If you want something specific from someone, you have to ask / give what that someone wants in exchange. Socialization 101.
Asking other people to “grow up” over their natural urges and needs, is like asking you to be attracted to the fat girl, or to be faithful to the unfaithful girl, or to become a doormat for somebody else: “Ok ok, I know you want to be treated well, we are all aware of it, but cant we just decide that this is stupid, and that I can treat you and abuse you however I like? cant you just be smarter, and understand that you shouldnt feel bad when I abuse you? grow over it man?”
Nope. Knowing how the game works doesnt change the game. The magic doesnt stop working because you see its wires. You can use that knowledge to fake it and scam and profit (proper manipulation), or to improve yourself and see what you’re missing.
May 19, 2012 4:39 am
Leap of a Beta
I’ve been thinking a lot lately on the topics of power, reality, and willingness to accept the world as it is in order to make your place within it.
Ted, it sounds like you’re having issues and placing not just women, but the whole world on a pedestal. You see human’s ABILITY to act intelligently, to see the ‘greater good,’ and think they should always act in such manners.
Rarely is there anyone that does this in the REALITY of our world. Which makes sense. If an individual was constantly acting for the ‘greater good’ then they’d have less energy and ability left to reproduce. The man that throws himself on a grenade to save his squad is viewed as an outlier, as heroic, as rising above the NORM. And he’s now dead and has no chance to pass those genes on to others.
Reasonably, you see these reactions -slightly more- in cases dealing with offspring. But those are still above the norm – as a parental unit that stays alive is still able to pass on their genes. Still, either way, if a man saves his son from a burning building the genes still go on if the father dies. So, more common, but not exactly a feat everyone does.
If you haven’t, read the 48 laws of power. Most of them are shitty, morally bankrupt, but utterly true. And part of the red pill is seeing the world as it is. You need to know those laws, how they influence you and your environment so that you can protect against them and use them to create the life you want. Using some of them as written would probably work against you as they can add a great deal of negative energy to your life. Which is part of knowing them so that you don’t accidentally use them and can spot someone using them.
May 19, 2012 4:59 am
yohami
Leap +1
May 19, 2012 5:31 am
Leap of a Beta
Also, as I’m not religious but have that background while knowing you do as well, I was thinking about those laws of power and how they work with a moral/religious compass guiding you.
I’m going to assume that you, based on seeing your past writing, and that you’re a white american, are Christian.
The bible has multiple passages that say the man in a relationship is supposed to be a leader that creates an environment of quality and love for his wife. If you read Dalrock I think he has some great points that an environment of love doesn’t necessarily mean she’ll ALWAYS ‘feel’ loved, but that she should trust you and defer to your judgment. The reason for doing so being that you’re a man of quality who is Godly and acting for the good of each of you with a long term outlook on it and not the moment to moment satisfaction people place on relationships today.
Any leader should know those laws of power and how they affect the people he interacts with. He should know these for being able to create the world he wants, protect those that he deems family and friends, and act against those deemed as enemies.
Acting with love for human beings does NOT mean making them feel loved. The Bible tells of how human beings are flawed but that you need to accept them and love them anyways. Never does it say you have to blind yourself to their faults. There are times and places for righteous anger and indignation.
You have to protect your flock from the wolves.
The single men, having swallowed the red pill, are simply looking to create that flock while on the look out for a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
While also on the look out for the Government tax man, trying to tell the sheep they can still eat in our pastures but we have no right to them. Hurrah for divorce laws…
May 19, 2012 9:04 pm
A Definite Beta Guy @Twitter Name
“Ted, it sounds like you’re having issues and placing not just women, but the whole world on a pedestal. You see human’s ABILITY to act intelligently, to see the ‘greater good,’ and think they should always act in such manners.”
That’s what this really comes down to. Ted’s not satisfied with how the world works. He wants it to be better. He’d like other people to undertake the effort needed to improve it, which is quite possible.
What it gets responded with is:
“You want to conserve your energy and waste ours.
So go fuck yourself. And I love you, my friend, but fuck yourself already. Grow the fuck up.”
Other people don’t want to do it. Which is fair, the world is working pretty well for them, so why the hell should we go through hell to change it?
I honestly don’t know the answer to this for the idealistic people. I could tell my friends worried about famine in Botswana or whatever that they can find a nice girl and a nice job and a nice hobby and it’ll fade from their mind. Not going to work in this scenario.
Don’t know what to tell you, Ted.
May 19 2012 22:02 pm
yohami
ADBG,
Ted got more than that. Not only on my post but during the last few months, he's got advice from everyone and anyone who would listen to him.
Ted doesnt want something "better", he wants something "different", but only different enough so he doesnt have to change what he's doing already / his identity. He wants the world to change so he doesnt have to. That's why I say, fuck you, man.
If ted wanted something "better" he could do it. He can convince the whole world to do it. I has to come in the form of a proposal, a clear roadmap, something attainable, he has to click on what other people want and sync and lead by example. So no, that's not what he's talking about.
May 19 2012 22:18 pm
yohami
1) Take the line "but this is stupid! we're intelligent, we can do something else, we're better than that!"
2) Realize he's talking about male / female biological urges, base survival instincts.
3) Apply the same line to other situations to gain perspective:
- Sugar makes you fat (but this is stupid! we're intelligent!)
- Your dick likes feminine bodies ( we're intelligent, we can do better than that!)
- If you cross the speed limit you get a ticket ( but this is stupid! we can do better!)
- If I treat you poorly, you get upset ( but we're intelligent! )
- If you you cross my boundaries, I get upset ( but we can do better than that!)
- If you tell a good joke, you get laughs ( but this is stupid! can we do better?)
- If you curse and fuck people, you get a nasty payback ( but arent they intelligent? they can do better!)
- If you dont eat, you get very hungry ( but we're intelligent!)
Do you see it now?
There's a place for intelligence here: take the truth, absorb reality, then figure a way to make the game work for YOU. And you´ll have to work your ass to make reality work for you. If you're clever enough, make it a business and get rich. If you're generous enough, tell us how so we can follow.
Intelligence and aiming for better is not here so you dont have to change. It's here to help you change.
May 20, 2012 12:23 am
Leap of a Beta
Yohami +1 for pointing out the hamster wheeling
May 20, 2012 12:25 am
Leap of a Beta
It also made me laugh, a lot. The people at Barnes and Noble likely think I’m crazy because of it, but fuck them. Its a gorgeous day and my life is beautiful right now.
May 20, 2012 12:48 am
yohami
haha
May 20, 2012 12:08 pm
Linkage is Good for You: Week of May 20, 2012
[...] [...]
May 21, 2012 4:54 am
HH10s for the win! @Twitter Name
Yohami and other guys, did this “shifting into feminine presence exercise” make this woman more attractive. Yes or No?
May 21, 2012 5:00 am
yohami
Yes, a bit. I cant believe the trolls in the comment section there.
May 21, 2012 5:56 am
HH10s for the win!
What about her advice for men?
May 21 2012 06:09 am
yohami
She has the words, expanding the energy from the heart, nurturing warrior, etc. She didnt pull it off energetically. She missed the power of the cock. big LOL. She missed that the way to balance the chest is to push the shoulders back - push the chest up, and get relaxed in that position. She missed some more cues. But whatever. It's good to see a woman caring about this.
May 24, 2012 4:54 am
Ted D @Twitter Name
Holy shit guys! I get a cold and you all post like mad!
I’m good. I’m just tired of trying to make sense of 500 different lines of thought going around my head 24×7 regarding the red pill, feminine sexuality, and game.
Yeah I have 41 years invested in myself as I am, but I am willing to change. And in fact I have been working on self improvements for several months including physical as well as mental changes. I get that the world is what it is, and women are what they are. I’m somewhere between agonized and in mourning to being really pissed off that the only reason we are where we are is because we are generally selfish and self-centered creatures. Hell, I’m being selfish in thinking everyone should be better so I can be happy, so don’t think I’m trying to make myself appear to be holier than thou.
I’m working my way back to just worrying about myself and my own. I can’t fix the world, and nobody cares that things could be better. But it is damn frustrating to know a thing and not be able to do something about it. I know, I can do something about it for myself. Selfish to the end, right?
None of that changes the fact that I really do see game tricks as gimmicks lacking in integrity. For sure the knowledge looks sound, but I just don’t think that kind of success is worth the price. I don’t need or want to bang 100 women, I really just want one to share my life with. Call it a blue pill pipe dream, or a stupid romantic rambling, but I don’t see the point in putting in the effort if I’m not getting what I want and need. Isn’t that part of learning game, getting what you want from a woman? Well I need a relationship based on truth and honesty, not based on tricks and gimmicks. I need a woman that is a partner, not a pet or a child for me to take care of. I’m asking for a lot it seems, but hey, I’m pretty much offering myself in exchange, and I know I’m a bit rough, but I still feel like I’m worth the investment.
May 24, 2012 5:30 am
Stingray
Game is a tool, Ted. Nothing more. You want your game to include integrity, then do it. I married a natural. He’s been gaming the shit out of me for almost 16 years, nearly 13 of those married. He has more character than any other man I have ever met. Doesn’t mean he doesn’t do (or at some point did) most of what game bloggers talk about all the time. He was just very lucky (or is it me that is so lucky?) in that he figured all of this stuff out on his own.
Your definition of manipulation needs to change, Ted. It is not an evil word. It simply means changing the situation to get what you want. That doesn’t have to be evil. Asking someone to pass the salt is manipulating the situation and now your food tastes better. You can do the same thing in your relationship without doing anything that would make you lose your integrity or your dignity. You just have to figure for yourself how you want to manipulate your situation. No one else can do it for you.
May 24 2012 17:06 pm
Ted D
" I married a natural. He’s been gaming the shit out of me for almost 16 years, nearly 13 of those married."
If he is a "natural", then he is not acting when he "games" you, correct? That is my issue. I don't want to "fake it til I make it.". Because I don't want to be "made" into that image. I'm trying to figure out how to integrate my red pill knowledge to figure out how *I* can put it to best use, and to be honest other than knowing the truth I can't find much. Inner game aside, there just isn't much there that I don't find sneaky and disingenuous.
Do people in general really act in specific ways towards people simply to get what they want? I can think of some specific examples for myself, such as how I interact during a job interview, where that makes sense. But honestly, in my day to day life I very, very rarely even think about how someone may take the things I say to them, because it isn't my issue to deal with. I don't try to "sweat talk" people into doing what I want, I ask and if they say no I may attempt a rebuttal, but generally I take that answer and go. If I find myself at odds with someone at work, I don't attempt to "play to them" to sway them my way, I stick to the facts of my argument and let the chips fall where they do on the merits of my presentation. Sure, I might be able to "trick" them into going my way, but what kind of win is that? It doesn't mean they saw the logic in my view, it means I was good at talking them out of their own. I would rather lose the debate sticking to my guns than win by shady tactics.
For me it isn't about winning or getting what I want all the time. It is about doing the best I can while keeping my integrity. Any success gained by compromising my morals isn't a win at all. It is a loss.
May 24, 2012 5:47 am
yohami
Ted D,
“I really do see game tricks as gimmicks lacking in integrity. ”
Can you list them? which game tricks, and how they lack integrity. Elaborate.
May 24 2012 16:54 pm
Ted D
Negs - basically insulting a woman to knock her off guard so she will be easier to "game"
Active aloof - if you are genuinely interested and you act uninterested to get her to "chase" you, it is a bit like a lie of omission.
Dominance displays - if you are not naturally dominant, pretending to be so to inspire interest from a woman is false advertising.
Any "rule" (golden ration) that states how much affection you should give in ratio to how much you get from a woman. Either you want to be affectionate, or you don't. "Rationing" your affection is a form of manipulation designed to make her wonder if you are truly interested so that she will up her end to try and "pull you in".
Any form of intentional dread - basically this is purposefully provoking fear of abandonment in a woman by "showing her you have options". Not only is this an intentional act that causes pain to the one you are supposed to love, but to me it shows bad character for a man to openly flirt with other women if he is with someone. Being friendly is just fine, and having women hit on him isn't his fault, but responding to flirting and/or provoking it to inspire fear in a mate is disrespectful to her, and shows a lack of integrity.
Any advice that tells a man to not give straight answers to questions asked by a woman. I am a HUGE fan of "don't ask if you don't want an honest answer", and I'll be damned if I lie simply to get laid. I've told the truth despite knowing the repercussions would be bad because telling the truth is the right thing to do. I've done my best to also avoid "lies of omission" but sometimes it just doesn't occur to me to spill the beans on something at the time.
Listen, I'm not a young guy in the market for a fresh lay every week. I've been married, I have my children, and now what I really want is someone to partner up with and enjoy the rest of my life with. I can't enjoy myself if I have to constantly keep up a set of "game rules" to make sure she sticks around. I get the inner game part, and I'm working on it. There is no denying that my failed marriage was a result of some very bad programming, and a continual slide into betadom during the second half of our 13 years together. I got fat and lazy, and I have no one but myself to blame for MY part in that failure. But, I wasn't the only one to blame. If my ex-wife had an inkling of self awareness she could have told me what was wrong. If she spent some time simply reflecting on herself, she could have recognized that the demands she made to me were unreasonable requests designed to test my resolve, most of which I failed miserably I might add. (because I expected her to be acting as a rational adult and not asking for something she really didn't want from me). I'm OK with fixing my own shit, but I don't believe I should also have to fix someone else's shit as well. I made the mistake of allowing my ex to direct my course of action, and I think (and hope) I learned my lesson. But to me there is a huge difference between fixing myself so that I am a better and more complete person for my mate, and changing myself to be better at manipulating my mate into feeling the way *I* want her to feel. Yes, asking someone to pass the salt is indeed a form of manipulation, but the key is it isn't overt at all. It is an out in the open request for someone to do something for me, which they have the opportunity to accept or reject. But there is no way to say that "game" doesn't contain a lot of underhanded and sneaky manipulative tricks. It is the degree to which one hides their true intent that makes manipulation evil, and I have no desire to hide my intentions from my mate.
May 25, 2012 5:34 pm
YOHAMI
“I’m going to do my best to teach my SO about herself.”
Unless she’s asking you to teach her about herself, this is unlikely to work. I tried that for 5 years on 2 different relationships.
1) If you care about her change more than she does, you become codependent, if you’re not already (chances are you are)
2) By finding the solution on the awareness of other people, by focusing on the external, you transfer your own blame and inadecuate feelings and painful emotions into other people. On the long run, you’ll make everything worse.
3) She may be a kid, but she’s not your kid. Even when we continually refer to women as childrens, what it really means is that you must strive to become an adult in your relationship. Even if she was your kid and you wanted her to change, “explaining her herself” doesnt do anything.
A) Kids dont need explanations, they need rules and consistency and an intelligence stronger than their own they can trust. They will be able to process explanations, in case they ever want them, once they are curious about how things WORK. For that, they have to see that stuff WORKS first. They need to experience the rule before than the explanation.
B) Women are more emotional than men. You have to handle her with emotional intelligence, not rational intelligence. If she’s in a middle of an emotional turmoil and you attempt the logic-explanation path, she´ll get angrier because you dont understand her and you’re trying to manipulate her rational mind into changing her emotions, when you should be paying attention to her emotions. And what does paying attention to her emotions mean? not necessarily that you surrender to them. But you have to treat them as real, when they are, and spank her / reprehend her when she’s just being evil.
and
4) You’ve been in a relationship with her for a while. You know this woman. What is exactly what you’re going to explain her about herself that she doesnt know already? and, how well has she taken “explanations” about herself that are not pleasant, codename: criticism?. How does she handle being confronted with rational explanations she doesnt want to hear, or facets of herself that have negative connotations?
Dude. When your kids do something improper. Do you sit them them down and explain them the history of mankind and all the context and variables and why what they did upset you so much so they can take in consideration your feelings and their own and all humanity and society and the rules, and they can make their own choice?
Or do you tell them: Dont do THAT, firmly, let them get the message, then let them go?
Guess which kid is going to be happier?
You’re supposed to be the adult. The MAN in the relationship. That means it’s your job to digest reality and expose yourself to all the danger and complexities of the world, deal with it, find solutions for it, digest it, and make it SIMPLE.
This means you’re not supposed to explain other people in your circuit. You’re not supposed to be a non-playing supportive agent that keeps giving advice and explanations to the person in charge. You’re the one expected to be in charge. You’re supposed to lead. You’re supposed to be only listening to the feedback other people do on YOUR leadership. Not listening so you follow them, but listening so you know how to lead better.
You’re supposed to tell them what to do, how, “why” only if they ask you directly, but the “why” is not so they agree with you. They should agree with you because you’re a proven decision maker, and because they trust you, and because it’s implicit. Because you’re the adult, and they chose you.
* * *
So. You found your scapegoat and decided that you’re going to explain her herself.
First examine why, exactly, you need so badly that she realizes who she is and what she’s doing to you. And why you need to verbalize and she to accept your verbalization and to change, to please you, based on your understanding of how the world works instead of her own. Why on the face of the uncomfortable, you need HER to change HER mind in order for YOU to have what YOU want.
Why do you need to do all that manipulative process, instead of, say, being the person and acting in the way the end result is for granted, quitting the approval seeking and approval dependance, and the clingyness and neediness, and becoming an adult and lead by example, sans-explanations.
You’re placing her as a stepping stone to your own change.
It wont work.
May 27 2012 16:26 pm
Stingray
Yohami,
Unless she’s asking you to teach her about herself, this is unlikely to work. I tried that for 5 years on 2 different relationships.
1) If you care about her change more than she does, you become codependent, if you’re not already (chances are you are)
2) By finding the solution on the awareness of other people, by focusing on the external, you transfer your own blame and inadecuate feelings and painful emotions into other people. On the long run, you’ll make everything worse.
3) She may be a kid, but she’s not your kid. Even when we continually refer to women as childrens, what it really means is that you must strive to become an adult in your relationship. Even if she was your kid and you wanted her to change, “explaining her herself” doesnt do anything.
A) Kids dont need explanations, they need rules and consistency and an intelligence stronger than their own they can trust. They will be able to process explanations, in case they ever want them, once they are curious about how things WORK. For that, they have to see that stuff WORKS first. They need to experience the rule before than the explanation.
B) Women are more emotional than men. You have to handle her with emotional intelligence, not rational intelligence. If she’s in a middle of an emotional turmoil and you attempt the logic-explanation path, she´ll get angrier because you dont understand her and you’re trying to manipulate her rational mind into changing her emotions, when you should be paying attention to her emotions. And what does paying attention to her emotions mean? not necessarily that you surrender to them. But you have to treat them as real, when they are, and spank her / reprehend her when she’s just being evil.
and
4) You’ve been in a relationship with her for a while. You know this woman. What is exactly what you’re going to explain her about herself that she doesnt know already? and, how well has she taken “explanations” about herself that are not pleasant, codename: criticism?. How does she handle being confronted with rational explanations she doesnt want to hear, or facets of herself that have negative connotations?
Dude. When your kids do something improper. Do you sit them them down and explain them the history of mankind and all the context and variables and why what they did upset you so much so they can take in consideration your feelings and their own and all humanity and society and the rules, and they can make their own choice?
Or do you tell them: Dont do THAT, firmly, let them get the message, then let them go?
Guess which kid is going to be happier?
You’re supposed to be the adult. The MAN in the relationship. That means it’s your job to digest reality and expose yourself to all the danger and complexities of the world, deal with it, find solutions for it, digest it, and make it SIMPLE.
This means you’re not supposed to explain other people in your circuit. You’re not supposed to be a non-playing supportive agent that keeps giving advice and explanations to the person in charge. You’re the one expected to be in charge. You’re supposed to lead. You’re supposed to be only listening to the feedback other people do on YOUR leadership. Not listening so you follow them, but listening so you know how to lead better.
You’re supposed to tell them what to do, how, “why” only if they ask you directly, but the “why” is not so they agree with you. They should agree with you because you’re a proven decision maker, and because they trust you, and because it’s implicit. Because you’re the adult, and they chose you.
* * *
You should put this in it's own post and maybe expand on it some. I think you did a very good job here explaining some of the difference between women and men and how we communicate. I don't think most women want to know how they tick, but if a man has the fortitude and patience to do what you said here, she might not understand things in a way that she could verbalize them, but she will understand them in her subconscious and it will show in many ways in how she responds to this man. It's an important thing here you spoke about.
May 28, 2012 10:25 pm
Jennifer
Stingray, get real; your loose definitions of manipulation are getting ludicrous. Yohami, get the hell real; women keeping themselves from assholes and men refraining from being an assholes are nothing like the unchangeable facts of speeding tickets and sugar. For fuck’s sake, this entire subject has gotten so completely ridiculous and fogged up in every way; yes, we are better than our shallow urges. A woman wanting a strong man is a natural urge, not a SHALLOW urge, which is exactly what wanting an asshole who PRETENDS to be strong is. A man wanting a feminine body is a natural urge, not a shallow one. Bettering ourselves has everything to do with being aware of the world and nothing to do with unrealistic changes. And for those who confuse the situation by saying otherwise, apply the words “Fuck you” to yourselves.
May 28, 2012 10:26 pm
Jennifer
“I stand firm on what I want and need. My needs come first”
So your wife has forced you to be selfish. Nice.
May 28, 2012 10:31 pm
yohami
Jennifer, are you posting on the right place? this post has nothing to do with assholes. Anyway:
“women keeping themselves from assholes and men refraining from being an assholes are nothing like the unchangeable facts of speeding tickets and sugar.”
Speeding … hum? women should keep themselves away from assholes, and men should keep themselves away from bitches. And each one should mature and not become an evil caricature. Still, totally unrelated to this post.
“A woman wanting a strong man is a natural urge, not a SHALLOW urge”
Agreed.
“which is exactly what wanting an asshole who PRETENDS to be strong is. ”
Assholes pretending to be strong… hum? I guess you mean fakery is shallow.
“A man wanting a feminine body is a natural urge, not a shallow one.”
Agreed.
“Bettering ourselves has everything to do with being aware of the world and nothing to do with unrealistic changes.”
Not sure of what you mean. What is an unrealistic change?
“And for those who confuse the situation by saying otherwise, apply the words “Fuck you” to yourselves.”
Overall your message is confusing. Elaborate.
May 28, 2012 11:20 pm
Jennifer
I’m not sure I agree entirely with Ted. But I’m saying that your seeming claim that we can’t improve ourselves beyond what our society is, is false.
May 28, 2012 11:23 pm
yohami
We can improve ourselves and rise above of normal society. That means, the change starts in you.
Ted wants society to change so he doesnt have to. He wants a “better” that includes, for example, he not being an adult in his relationship, while labeling his girlfriend’s need for a STRONG man as “shallow”
He wants the stuff he doesnt like or understand, to be labeled as stupid and to be discarded by everyone, at a macro level, so Ted can keep being Ted.
That’s not betterness, that’s laziness.
May 28, 2012 11:45 pm
Jennifer
I agree with that; you do need to change yourself before others. The sum of your arguments, in the comments and the post, seemed to be that the world is what it is, and to just find a way to make it work for you, that the “rules” are that we do shallow things and can’t change that, like women wanting bad boys and being disinterested in reason; I, on the other hand, do not want a bad boy and am interested in reason, and so are many other women, all the best ones I know. And if they’re not, they can change. This was my point; it’s natural for women to want strong men and for men to want feminine women, but wanting as*holes or men wanting sluts/passive waifs or whatnot is shallow and such shallowness is not something people as a whole are doomed to, especially since as*holes are often not truly strong men. Your material point, about changing oneself, though, is agreed with.
“Actually, I´ll wait here while you look for a single example of any human being overriding their most basic and strongest biological urges”
Surviving is a biological instinct; so is sex. People have overcome both. Other instincts, of course, can’t be overcome; a woman will never want a weak man, and a straight man will never want an utterly mannish woman. We may not be able to stop ourselves from wanting a mate period, but we can stop instantaneous urges to mate indiscriminantly. Tricky question.
May 29 2012 03:45 am
Emma
Heh, well some straight men are into female bodybuilders and some women are sexually dominant. I wouldn't count it as "overriding biological urges" though, it's just that some people's urges are different. Same goes, as far as I know, for suicide (overriding survival instinct) and celibacy (those who can't go without sex probably wouldn't pull it off).
May 29, 2012 2:35 am
Stingray
Jennifer,
This is a conversation that Ted and I have been having for quite some time. I took the definition of manipulate down to it’s most basic form for a reason. Manipulation does not have to be a dirty word and I was trying to help Ted see that. We all manipulate everyday. It can be done in a malicious way or a benevolent way.
As regarding Ted’s needs coming first, a woman respects a man whose mission comes first. This is where his strength comes from. It does not make him selfish. This is all Ted meant. Again, this is a conversation that has been going on for a long time now and since you likely do not have all the history you are misunderstanding what Ted means.
May 29 2012 07:36 am
Jennifer
Sting, having a mission in life you don't give up, and putting your needs in a marriage first are two different things. Thanks for explaining, but things like manipulation and asshole are terms I've seen gamers cloud over time and again. We manipulate or operate things, not people, every day.
May 29, 2012 3:49 am
yohami
Avoiding pain is yet another instinct. And then we have fixations and mental issues. Suicide + celibacy != overriding your instincts.
May 29, 2012 5:06 am
Emma
Right, we don’t do anything without some reward, dictated to us by our natures/personalities we built. It’s just that some rewards are also big rewards for those we care about. Like how for many men, reward of having their girlfriend is bigger than reward cheating would give. Perhaps for people like Ted, staying true to his rules is a bigger reward than anything else. Not saying it’s the greatest way to be, but it’s how some people are.
I’d say suicide is over powerful drive overpowering the survival drive.
May 29, 2012 5:13 am
Emma the Emo
*suicide is a powerful drive
(sorry, was distracted while typing that…)
May 29, 2012 7:46 am
yohami
Jen, context.
Ted says he doesnt like game because he see’s as “manipulative”. As in, doing A to get B. And this, applied to being the stronger party on his relationship. Ah, do I have to be in charge and act all A in order for my relationship to work and for my partner to act all B? but I dont like manipulation!
Context is king. In this context manipulation is a good word = doing A to get B. Which doesnt mean playing dirty games nor doing ugly emotional manipulation, etc.
May 29 2012 18:14 pm
Jennifer
All right, in this particular context I'll agree.
May 29, 2012 7:53 am
yohami
“having a mission in life you don’t give up, and putting your needs in a marriage first are two different things.”
Not really. But you can read that as being a selfish asshole, which isnt what we’re talking about.
If you have a mission in life, and you get married, you either give up your mission, or you mold the marriage to support the mission, which would be, putting yourself (mission) first. Since a man with a mission becomes the mission himself.
Then from the betatude point of view, betas /weak men put the woman and her needs first, then the marriage needs second, then whatever else she wants him to do, and leaves himself last, expecting that she gives him a cookie for all of his hard work or shows some appreciation, which will never come, because he didnt respect himself enough to demand / put his own priorities on the table.
Ted putting his needs first = baby steps. You bet there are many ways that can turn into selfishness and assholery or dictatorship, but Ted is a beta. He has a long way to go before he can succumb to that trap. He should look for his mission now.
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