Bro, Im still digesting this stuff
written by yohami
I wrote this at Rivelino’s
Bro, Im still digesting this stuff, but here’s the succint that explains where all of your problems come from: watch the video.
There are four pieces in play. Two people, one needing, other giving, one owning the frame, other reacting to the frame, one needing the other for survival, and an ambivalence that goes between “hey Im cute look at me!” and “fuck Im furious look at me”, and then the range of hate / love / sadness / despair / joy / safeness that happens between the two.
That circuit gets printed before we learn to talk = before we are able to form abstract and concepts. It’s a basic four piece, emotional / behavioral circuit.
There are many ways that circuit can be imprinted “wrong”. One is to have the mom (or dads) on the receiving end, making the kid the giver. Other is having him owning the frame. Other is to have the mom (or dads) respond only when the kid acts out. Other is making the kid act out and then silence him / punish him for it. Etc. Shortly, the kid understands the game and starts to play it.
And then you build everything on top.
Your experiences from ages 12-21, of course helped forming you, because you’re 35 now and this is a sum accumulative game. But honestly, what happened to you from 12-21, are the same mechanics that were already happening, only adding more external world influence, sex drive, and additional pressures.
Im trying to locate the source of the pain, and is this: like a compass or a geometrical piece that wants to find equilibrium, the pain wants to find the “good” again (from the good the bad and the ugly), but it only knows to reach that “good” by balancing violently between the bad and the ugly and episodes of rage and if that doesnt work, splitting / self mutilation ( cutting out the undesired parts of you, your past, identity, emotions, people, relationships, blocking stuff out, etc)
It’s a constant look out for the elusive “good” part of the dynamic.
Then BPD and narcissim, codependency etc: when this stuff get’s bad imprinted, it’s like the foundation of the building isnt strong enough, so the building cant grow normal. Like a bonsai or something. The learned game doesnt “work” so it keeps trying, its an internal struggle that never resolves. Like the rat that pushes the lever once and again and gets rewards randomly ( the basis of compulsive behavior / addiction ). Plus the whole identity gets build on top of it.
BPD narcissim etc equals having the emotional growth of a three year old or so. You get stuck to the mechanics that quite dont work ( yet are the only you know ) and miss the mechanics that you would have developed in the subsequent years.
Say, if you knew how to get to the good part, and how to get to the bad and ugly part on your own, with control over your emotions, by the time sexuality peaked, age 12, you would have had natural “game”, and you would have been assertive about your needs and wants.
But you werent confident / self reassured about your needs and wants, because you were still negotiating how to even feel “good” and safe, so you didnt develop game nor saw girls / relationships for what they were – but you just added this to the previous unresolved mix, like, seeking the “good” (basic, maternal, paternal love where you’re defenseless and you’re intimally loved and taken care of and safe) from girls, mixing the defenseless and the sexual aggressive drive and the long time affection longing and the sense of dispair of never feeling safe, etc. and, adding the ugly and acting out and resenting the “big provider” for being such a manipulator, and whatever other mechanisms you needed to stabilize the original game, being a control freak, or being a doormat, or placing your needs last, or placing them first, exercising too much pressure (abusing), or letting yourself be abused, attaching too strongly, or refusing to attach at all, the places you had to go or the places you were forbidden to go, or whatever, whatever you had to learn and repeat so you could have access to the good part, or could live at all if the good part never came.
And then add years and years of rationalization that attempted to normalize this so you could do other stuff, have friends, work, study, have a life.
The idea seems to be that people are stuck on an emotional development age. It explains a hell of a lot for me.
Then of course, when you “click” with somebody, it’s your internal game, the primal game what clicks. You see the opportunity to play the game and win it this time. Whatever that game is, whatever the imprint is, “that” is what is going to repeat. You’re going to repeat what already happened, because you’re still playing that game, and you’re asking around who wants to play it with you.
Man, this is a great post. My mental wheels are doing all sorts of turning between this and some of the readings I’m going through on the getting better.com website you linked.
I feel like I’m a few short steps away from being able to atleast EXPLAIN why I instinctively act the way I do. Both with women and in work interactions.
I know I’m attempting to change those instincts. And I know that I’ve met with success; sometimes more than others. And occasionally reverting back or pressing forward too far too fast.
I need to give this a day or two for my conscious and subconscious to stew over and come back and reread this and a couple of the getting better articles. I feel if I find some of the roots of these behaviors I can better direct my self growth.
So close. So frustratingly close. I hope.
Looks like Riv has marked his blog and twitter account as private now.
Got his identity busted.
Damn. Hope he does a reboot under another blog.
Busted by the he posted the questions from, work, another ex, or something else?
Riv is a fool. He should’ve learned his lesson the last time he posted personal stuff about women on his blog. He’s only getting whats coming to him.
Again, when the “doctor” says “30-40 years ago ‘we’ didn’t know babies could interact socially with their world” who is the “we” he is referring to?
Every parent since the beginning of time has known that. Duh. Its commonsense. This dude must not have any kids. And this is called “science” and “breakthough discoveries”?
Pfft!
Leap, not sure, maybe I’ll know more tomorrow. My advice to him is to go public, get out of the closet, and fully become the caricature he’s built online. On one hand it will destroy the bullshit from the real life, and on the other hand it will humanize the caricature.
If Amanda Marcotte and Tucker Max can be themselves why cant we?
HH10, do yourself a favor and watch the video with the sound off, the scientist is distracting you from the frame dynamics there.
My God, that literally was my problem. When I was a kid, I learned not to bother my father because he needed to focus on his work. Even when I did, he would usually ignore me. I’m talking 5 and 6 years old here, maybe younger. That explains so much…
Thanks so much for posting this.
Agreed. I might not come right out and say my name on my blog, but I don’t hide shit either. We’re all human, have issues, opinions, and all of us on this corner of the sphere are looking to better ourselves, unlike most people.
No need to actively hide any of that.
Yohami, you’ll find this interesting
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/magazine/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath.html?pagewanted=all
Yes, very interesting, thanks
[...] “getting in contact with your feewwingss” thing is making me think a lot. Leap brings it up from the comments, old shit right?, but it [...]
this is an interesting post for me as a mother of boys. I am enjoying reading your blog from that perspective. My boys a re still young, elementary school. I just wanted to share as a mother, watching that video, yes at the infant stage the mother very much controls the frame. But it is hard as a parent to maintain the upper hand in the power struggle that begins near age 2. At that age the kid very much wants to do everything possible to control the frame, and I tell you, when you have 2 or 3 kids testing your frame daily, it does a number on a grown up.
So, I just wanted to say that, since your post seems to imply that boys are so helpless in the hands of their mothers. But nature is wise and it it really is not that simple. I do realize I do have a power as a mother, as I can see that withholding affection really crushes my boys, so I am very careful with that, and I am mindful of always admitting when I did something wrong, like raise my voice. The call me on it, they call it angry voice and tell me they don’t like it, so I figure I am doing good by them. Nonetheless, they do test me daily, it is their job to constantly test their knowledge, and I tell you, it’s an insane amount of work to give them enough security and support so that they continue testing with confidence without driving me insane.
Anyways, best of luck digesting everything. I do enjoy your writing very much.
Wendy. So your kids reprehend you when you use your angry voice? did you teach them to, or did they pick that on their own?
Hey Yohami: I suppose I facilitated it, though it was fairly accidental. The first time was when my middle son was 2.5 years old. I had not been in the habit of raising my voice at them, but we were going through a temporary crisis that had me really stressed out, I was really at my wits’ end, so I was being short and bitchy and not fun to be around, and the first time I really screamed at them, I realized immediately what I had done because they were scared. So I walked out of the room, got my crap together and came back. They were looking kind of away from me and unsure to approach me, so I had no other course of action but to apologize and say it was wrong of me to raise my voice. They were immeiately curious and asked me lots of questions about why I had done. I did my best to field those questions without getting into my emotional drama, and so I did finish by telling them that next time I was frustrated about something and feeling angry about it, I was gonna walk out, just because that helps me keep my voice down.
I don’t recall how long went by until the next time I raised my voice, but I do remember it was my 2.5 year old who said: “Mom, you are using angry voice. ” It did stop me in my tracks.
At the time I do remember thinking, fuck, I ‘ve shot myself in the foot, I’ve got my kids correcting me, WTF.
But in the last 6 months of reading about game I’ve come to realize I’ve done a good thing. I hope they never take crap from other women in their lives.
Still, parenting is no joke. I did not have stellar parents myself, did my bit of therapy in my 20’s. There are things I still don’t excuse from them. But it’s really very easy to fail at parenting, we all fail to some degree.
[...] to feel it, all the unfairness and conflating accusatory shit (hint, MRA), and for a while, before I learned to check for this stuff in myself thanks to therawness and gettinbetter, I thought this to be an natural part of the feminine [...]
[...] In outlining (not defining) a male perspective of love in contrast to a female perspective it’s necessary to understand how a man’s understanding of love shifts as he matures. A lot of commenters wanted to find the base root of that concept in their relationship with their mothers. As Freudian as that rings I wouldn’t say it’s a bad start. Men do in fact learn their first impressions of intimate, physical and nurturing love from their mothers, and this then forms the foundation of that expected love from their potential wives (or lovers). Even as children are unable to think in abstract terms, there is an innate, base understanding of the conditionality that must be met in order to maintain that motherly love. Yohami posted a great illustration of this with the still face experiment. [...]
Bro, Im still digesting this stuff | YOHAMI The luxury Christian Louboutin wedges shoes are particularly costly for its Valueadded in real store. – lily0226 Blog – http://www.GameInformer.com https://www.gameinformer.com/blogs/members/b/lily0226_blog/archive/2013/05/13/the-luxury-christian-louboutin-wedges-shoes-are-particularly-costly-for-its-valueadded-in-real-store.aspx